Opposite race Rank 6-7 PvP Barrier

[Jackie-boy]

Opposite race Rank 6-7 PvP Barrier

Does it do more harm then good?

Hello. If you have read the title you will know this topic has to do with Opposite race Rank 6-7 Barrier. I do not* want nor care for any heated debates between all who set a message on this topic. Please just write what you feel about this, read others, and accept it. I do not want this topic to become the battleground for heated debate on Hollows vs shinigami. Make your point and leave it there. Do not spite anyone else because they have views different then yours. Accept it and keep it moving.  Lsm I will be addressing statements directly to you in this text. One final thing.. Leave the childishness for someone else. If you cannot present a mature, and adequate response to your support or lack thereof in the removal of the opposite Rank 6-7 pvp Barrier. Please save everyone the grief and just don't post anything.

Now down to the subject at hand. I am making this support thread because I feel that the PvP-Barrier between different race Rank 7 and Rank 6 needs to be removed. If you are still reading this then I'll explain to you the reasons why I feel this barrier needs to be removed.

First you give the rank holders no reason no initiative. Rank 6 holders have no reason to progress, thus making it beneficial to them and the entire race of theirs for certain members to rank hold. You may say that they are actually hurting themselves if they ever chose to rank, but many do not plan to rank at all and remain the strongest of their tier. Why you may ask? Because they receive little to no pressure from anyone stronger then them unless there is an invasion, and that can be easily handled by camping in their barracks, but once the invasion is over they reclaim dominance of all around them. If you(Lsm) really wanted this to be how the game is meant to be played then why would you make Rank 7-8 in the first place?

Through people holding Rank 6 the game is unbalanced to an incredible degree, and I implore you to realize that while this rank barrier in place it will throw a wrench into any plans that you plan for the game in the future.

With the race populations being incredibly imbalanced to begin with  the MPvP feature that you plan to introduce in the future will be viewed by many as an advantage to Shinigami. In MPvP, the shinigami race will be able to capitalize on this feature because of their rank holders. And once again you will have to face the cries of imbalance that will lead you even more mayhem. Without higher tier Rank 7 to put pressure on the opposite race's Rank 6, the Rank 6 of both races settle comfortably and enjoy PvP while Rank 7 and by extension Rank 8 stagnate with the same old players and receive not even close  to any PvP at all.

By making this small adjustment it will overtime fix many problems with race power imbalances, and require you to make less game-breaking moves towards making everything 'balanced'. This one single change could leap miles towards making the game more fun, and enticing to work towards rank 8 then any fancy feature could.

When entering Rank 7 you are met with nothing, but nearly capped rank 8 waiting on you. You are essentially dog food, and can't even oppress rank 6. So why would many sacrifice the omnipotence of rank 6 for that? This is the mindset that many have when holding Rank 6. I'm not saying to eliminate the same race barrier between Rank 6 and Rank 7. But I believe that the opposite race barrier between Rank 6 and Rank 7 has got to go. That is all. I thank you for reading, and I hope you understand what I've tried to present you.

Everyone feel free to post your ideas and position on this action whether it be in support or not about this.

[Tkamaru]

Forgive my idiocy, but can you explain what happens when you advance to rank 7.

[V3nomAng3L]

I completely agree with your reasoning on the subject, however, there are other reasons why people rank hold. For example, people would prefer capping everything before ranking. Another reason is that once you rank, you will be the weakest and the easiest to kill so you will be hunted down 24/7. "Some" people prefer to rank hold until or after everything's capped to avoid this problem. Personally, when I reach that level, I will rank hold until all of my abilities and stats are capped, seeing as how I'm ridiculously behind as it is. But I do agree with your reasoning and I believe something should be done about the rank holders holding for a ridiculous time, however, if the border is disabled, I can guarantee that a few players if not more will quit due to being hunted down by higher levels. No one likes to be constantly harassed with PvP's by people roughly 30 levels above them.

[Aless]

V3nom right and pvp r6 and r7 is unbalanc in SE

[WarJack]

I absolutely agree with the explanation and proposed solution to the problem.
This game a is PvP game. A fight implies an equal opportunity for both sides to win.
This is not the case however when certain players rank-hold, as they can move & kill freely, without consequence, obviously this is unfair.

Perhaps some sort of a time-limit or other penalty should be imposed upon rank-holders.

[Zero]

I completely agree the barrier between rank 7 and 6 for opposite race should be removed. It will give players more initiative to stop holding and picking on lower levels at rank 6. It also gives rank 7 players the ability to have someone to pvp instead of going into a rank where a majority of the other players are too powerful.

[V3nomAng3L]

I just now realized that if the rank 6-7 border is removed you will have people with bankai and segunda etapa fighting those without meaning that a lot of people will get destroyed effortless so i think the border should stay but something about the rank holders needs to be done.

[Zerorin]

I assume the reason for the barrier is the fact that r7 has second release, but would it be difficult to code in a block on second release while r7 and r6 fight? That way there won't be any cries of unbalance due to the res/zan boosts gained from second release. I completely agree that this issue as it stands is heavily unbalanced, creating a divide between r6 and r7 is more harmful than helpful.

[Jeantall]

I honestly think the barrier needs to be removed regardless if its balanced or not for the simple reason to prevent stagnation. Its basically rewarding lazy players for staying at a easy zone to stay in power. However most of these players do not stay long anyways so its pointless anyways. It becomes to easy and they quit anyways.

Now if you do remove the rank barrier I suggest removing the damage buff between ranks as well as it is more powerful then bakai/se anyways. With the current rules to bh Bankai and se is a complete waste in any regards anyways.

[God]

ONLY GOD WILL UNDERSTAND. ONLY GOD CAN MAKE BALANCE
ONLY GOD CAN DO SUCH THINGS. HUMANS HAVE NO SAY.
IN THE MATTER. LEARN WHO I AM.
TO NOT BECOME A THIRSTY FOR MORE POWER AND WISHES
I BEEN WATCHING YOU ALL FOR A VERY LONG TIME.
NOW ITS TIME FOR MY TO JUDGE YOU UPON YOUR
ACTIONS. IF I SHOULD TAKE AWAY YOUR VERY EXISTENCE ?
OR LET YOU BE. THAT IS WHAT WE SHOULD DEBATE ABOUT.
NOT A RANK BARRIER THAT BEEN PLACED HERE FOR A REASON
AND FOR A LONG TIME

[Sveti_Diabhal]

Other than this 'god' guys random RP and nonsensical post, i agree with most points on this thread. The stagnation is killing everything from the kyoto boss to the invasion system, both of which are a joke due to over-saturation of R6. to V3nom's point the difference between when you get the advance to rank and dealing with someone who went straight thru is no difference than dealing with someone who is near the stat cap on R6. Abolishing the rank barriers i can see viable as well that way it's not unfair. To me from my experience, the Rank Held R6s are the reason people quit. you get lv 56 your happy then someone with 4x your xp attacks you and you have no chance just cause they have lv 75 is kind of crap, on the person attacking and the situation in general. let alone get someone that will ck you at your barracks, then there's no point in playing at all. then the stagnation and lack of anything for the higher ranks makes them want to quit as well because it becomes pointless to even do anything. this game whether you want to play the PvE and kill AI or the PvP and kill players is supposed to be fun, not a game of i have held the rank the longest. I disagree with calling it a PvP game, if that was the case PvP would be the only option, last i checked it was easier to get stats through training and AI/patrol than PvP.

As a recap since i rambled a bit:
+ Remove R6 to R7 attack barrier in KC
+ Remove Rank Barrier
+ Enjoying the game
- this guy with god as his forum nomenclature

[Manchu]

lol Sveti

[Agito_Ralzer]

Could Lsm like implant something that if a r7 hollow fights a r6 shini,that the hollow cant use segunda?

[Deimi]

I've already voiced my opinion about this issue as far as rank holders are concerned for months now(Which seems to be more the focus of this discussion).
The staff are content with where they are and will not change their policy about rank divisions.
As much as you don't like rank holders, think about the issue with Rank 8. In 8 you start level 100 and have to fight people 50 levels above you. Considering the level range in every other rank this is a vast number, with higher stats needed to gain levels than any rank below them.
With this to look forward to, of course noone wants to go Rank 8. I've been Rank 8 for the past few months now, and I'm still easily destroyed by players that have already maxed their levels. Even the difference in stats between people 4-5 levels is vastly higher than someone 10 levels in any rank below Rank 8.
A better solution would be to impliment a level lock, where you cant attack anyone outside of a level range from you unless certain circumstances are met (Like when you're invading or other things you can impliment.) This would give people starting in a new rank the time and opportunity to build up and not have to be hunted by people they stand no chance to win against.

[Ormag]

Well, I agree with it
But, with this barrier removed , wouldnt lvl 100 hunt lvl 56 too? How about making the players who reach lvl 70-75 vulnerable, but lower lvls not :P This way, if lvl 75 wanna rank hold, they will be able to hunt lower lvls but being hunted by r7 and players< 70 to be able to train or find someone strong to protect them while training What you think ?

[V3nomAng3L]

Hey god......If you're a god why does it say HUMAN under your name

[Jackie-boy]

V3nomAng3L please keep your post relevant to the topic. This thread is not the place for it. Remain on topic please if your going to post.

[Lsmjudoka]

I have some reasons for not wanting to let rank 7 attack rank 6 in Kyoto, but I will think over the concerns voiced in this thread and think of a way to address them. I'm sorry I can't say more now but it's better if I completely gather my thoughts and think through everything on the matter so that I can present a complete statement.

[straywolf174]

After reading through replies in the first section (because signal was inferior and i didn't want my ideas to fade away - despite however good or bad they may seem to others,) i started thinking about players and the PvP system as a whole.

If your still interested in what these idea's imply, read on at your own risk.

My Prolonged Thoughts

To start off with, as stated in WoB's game manual, and by several players and information links, This Bleach game IS a PvP based STRATEGY game. That being the case, while elements of roleplay and human socialism is also involved, it is mainly broken down into planning and winning battles - be it between other players, or with several of the game's system based bosses, - to increase your stats and your gains for race\group as a whole.

For those that purposefully use in-game flaws to there advantage, and do not progress and use the strategy and brains they have, as well as put the effort into training and battles with AI among other things, my question is, why join such a game that requires the energy?

By doing things such as rank holding for no adeqaute reason, you ruin the game's balance and over all levels of playability because now, the players that worked, are without others to enjoy the game's key element that draws in people from the start: Grid based strategic PvP.

This being stated as a vital and even perhaps lethal flaw because, with such major imbalances proposed, as the original posts claimed, players will ultimatley see no point in the matter and quit.

However, i'm not going on and on about previous posts. My worry is, as usual, over the fact that if certain precautions were made, then the game's strategic atmosphere would not only be flawed, but utterly destroyed, and WoB would be a walking time bomb.

Let me use a previous suggestion as an example. It was proposed we drop the rank holding - or, to be more specific, - set a time limit. Why?
I am understanding that it's to stop players from doing what the rank six do now; however, what of the players that generally want to take the time to capp? It is known that upon ranking, things automaticly shift for the lower ranked levels, and so without strong stats to back you up, your bound to be weaker and weaker each rank, undoubtedly becoming a victom of higher levels in a never ending purge of PvP haxing.

So to put another way, remove the strategy of training and PvP's...you get alot of complaints and a sharp drop in player counts and income. Why? Because WoB isn't WoB without its core features.

I like to beleive that we are getting so many glittering upgrades, the newer generations think more is better, or something of the like, and while features are neat, it isn't going to help. Because the game would eventually lose it's charm.

Okay, stay with me. I know i'm going on and on for just a simple reply, but i assure you, i have a valid response and proposition.

To continue, despite how boring i am becoming, a removal of the barrier would not help the situation. Then, the lower ranks wouldn't set foot in KC, because so many higher ups would instantly slaughter them. The buffer idea is nice, but i don't think it would aid that much as far as chances of survival. Especially of one is capped and one isn't.

So if we can't buffer, and we can't lower the barrier...then what in Hueco Mundo's name do we do!?

I'll tell you...


My MANY Solutions

~ We re-evaluate the rank seperations as a whole, and adjust the barriers and buffers according to how many gains and such can be made between said levels.

By this, i mean we look at, say, a level difference instead of rank. This way, PvP can't be limited, pressure will still fluorish, and rank holding wouldn't be nearly as much as a problem.

~ We adjust seat items and gains for an equal measurment, so one race does not veiw themselves as inferior when compared to another - and both may enjoy the victories gained against each other.

I understand this is already being worked over, but i felt it belonged in the subject at hand, despite the fuss. It has a place in the rank holding issue, however meak that place may be to different players.

~ We add testers in the staff position. So that way, before things are implemented, Lsm has real player feed back and can work on things without resulting in chaotic game complaint overload or other things of the like.

Honestly, as far as staff positions go, i've been wanting testers and other things for awhile. This is because with Testers, Game mods, Admins, and perhaps other things such as Contest mods and stuff, the game would be more enjoyable, and the work would be split up, and not so much in a small, set group of tired individuals.

~ We allow Segunda\Bankai to be on a "hold" for a total of at least Four turns before being unleashed against a lower rank that may not have it.

This evens the playing feild more, without completely locking it down for the whole battle, because to me, it would be unfair to the player - especially if it was testing moves or stats against another, or simply showing them what it could do.

~ We destroy God's post because i am sooooo much cooler for actually suggesting something other than my sheer awsomness

Sorry....it had to be said, lol



------ In Advance -----

If this helps, then i am grateful. If not, i am sorry for typing a long, useless post, but to me, the suggestions could make some difference and add tons of playability. Thanks for reading!

Side note: I understand doing such things would take a very long process, but again, i truly beleive it would set the game on the right track for its players.
Also, sorry if the response is late. Today was busy Q~Q

[Kazu]

Yo, I am gonna be rambling on here and it might sound off topic but i believe it has some link to the topic going on here. I think i should make a new thread as "my view of WoB in 3 months" but wth.
And do note this is just my view.
Incase I break some forum rules or such (just made an acc..not familiar with all the rules) I implore the mods/admins to delete it asap.

Ramble:

Now before you snicker at my ramblings and reply "tl;dr" imma request you guys to view it with an open mind and try to understand what i am trying to convey with my broken english.
Anyways "Invasions" renders the so-called and hated r6 "rank holders" useless.

My Rough Solution: Remove the r6-r7 barrier for the defending r7 during attack on the base. And if we were to stay true to the gameplay it makes sense that r6's who are invisible to r7 in kc be vulnerable to attacks while the base is under attack and the defenders come out to defend.
Do note i mean only during attacks and for the defending r7s (when the base is not 50000/50000) else new problem would arise since r7-r8 can camp the enemy base and not let the smaller ranks move to KC at all. Could it be implemeted?
I know its a vague and rough solution but balance is required yo
d
ign Kazuya---welcome for pms (hateful/useful) if ya have
And if it pleases the veterans, i am holding for my own reasons.

Yep i am done with this much of useless rambling. Thanks for your time. I hope i contributed something.

Edit: Straywolf's solutions sounds good too.

[Boveip]

I agree 100% with the removal of the barrier between r6 and r7.

It's not my intention to attack anyone, but I've read through the entire post, and the best argument against removing it is, in essence, "r6 (Rank-Holders) should not be subjected to the same situation that EVERY r5 (Hollow) has to go through. They could get sad and quit."

Now, one could argue that "Well r7's have vastly higher stats and it would be unfair". But if you compare the stat points as PERCENTAGES, between a new r5 and an old r6, I would bet you almost anything that they are similar, if not exact ratios you find between r6 and r7.

Regardless of what happens to the barrier between 6 and 7, I suggest adding one between 5 and 6. Or possibly developing a mechanic that works with stats, instead of EXP, in the Battle Eligibility.

Perhaps something along the lines of.. "Your Stats x 75% = 100,000." For simplicity. So anyone under 100,000 total stat points cannot be attacked by you.

Stats, in my context, referring to the total number when: MS + SS + HSM + Res + Str + Will +.... and so on. Though this could be changed to accommodate for wider functionality, between all ranks, if it proves to be effective.

I would also suggest implementing some excepting scenarios, such as "when invading or being invaded, the % stat required to be attacked is significantly reduced (Perhaps closer to 50%?), allowing users to be attacked by persons who couldn't normally."

That's really the only exception I can think of to my proposed rule :p. But worth some thought, I think.

[Kazu]

I wanted to add this on my previous post but mehh...my rough solution was after reading the post of Lsm since he was looking for a way to address the problem without having to let r7 attack r6 in kyoto city.

This is for Boveip since i have some concerns about his suggestions. Now i may have understood it wrong but i still gotta say this.
First thing tho,

"r6 (Rank-Holders) should not be subjected to the same situation that EVERY r5 (Hollow) has to go through. They could get sad and quit."

-I would change "Every r5 (Hollow)" part to just"Every r5". There are r5 in both sides yo.
Lets not forget that for any and every mmo game its the way the userbase play that determines how the game proceeds.

Regardless of what happens to the barrier between 6 and 7, I suggest adding one between 5 and 6. Or possibly developing a mechanic that works with stats, instead of EXP, in the Battle Eligibility.

1>If the barrier was to be removed and r7 could attack r6. Then there is no balance since r6 cant attack r5 who arent "Battle Eligible"
2>If the barrier stays then why not the same thing for r7 vs r8 and have a battle eligibilty between them too.

~

[lilEmily]

Personally, I like it not because I am R7 but because I have been slightly opposed to the PvP Rank Barriers anyways, plus if we were to rid that one, why wouldn't we rid of R7-R8? Or any others? It's adds more challenge and while yes it does cause some great deals of irritation from time to time, it gives some people the reason to stay and try and better themselves. I honestly would've left looooong ago if it weren't for the barriers not being there from time to time because once you get to the point where there isn't anymore people that can fight on equal grounds, it gets fairly boring fairly quickly. This may be only me but that has what kept me playing until I got to R7.

[Waffle]

For a reference:
Being a fully capped R6, I have experienced being both the rank holder and the prey for the next rank. That being said, I can say that there are players who are 10 lvls behind me that can defeat me if they use strategy. This is not from me making a mistake but from me being outplayed.

On to the barrier discussion I would not mind having it dropped. As I have sparred against newly ranked R7s I can still fight them on equal terms for about a week if they train regularly, and this is un released. There is little difference when their second is released, maybe a 1-5 lvl difference stat wise but still entirely manageable.

However after a little more training on their part fighting them un released is like fighting someone 10 lvs higher. Again winning is possible if proper strategy is used, but on their second release any chance of winning is out the door (this is mainly in part because the ones that I have sparred thus far have a passive regen).

This was to give you a slight insight on the matter. Also for your reference the moves I used in the fights where fully capped and I never released. On the matter of strategy, I did not battlehold as I always made my way towards my opponent as my ranges are limited to 4.3 (mainly 3.3 as that move is the only damage move I have that is capped) and I always go for the first hit, the moves I always have equipped and use in battles are a heal (capped), a 3.3 pure damage (capped), a 4.3 weakness and a 2.3 barrier, the other slots I rotate based on who my opponent is going to be based off of past battles. I do not use a boost as its nowhere near being halfway capped.

[Deimi]

I'd like to add on to what waffle said. There are indeed ways to fight people who are stronger than you as long as you use some smart plays when fighting them. As true as this is, there has been and still continues to be a history of people being punished for doing tactical moves when faced with people they need to use this on. On my thread "MY PERSONAL ISSUES WITH THE MODERATORS AND THE "IS, BUT NOT LIMITED TO" RULE, this would be a prime example of the weak fighting the strong by using different tactics than just sitting there and trading blows until you die. You dont have to break rules to recieve punishments, you just have to ALMOST break rules and/or annoy people 10-30 levels above you to be banned from the game. With the repeated history of this happening there's noone who's willing to try new ways to fight people who can 1-2 hit kill them. Even if nothing changes with the rank locks, there's still no point in trying to fight smart against other players if it just results in unfair and unjust punishments for trying to have a fighting chance against stronger players.
I already gave my opinion in putting a level lock for those who just started a new rank. How about set it up so when you max the level for your rank this will make you exempt for the rank lock. This way rank holders would still be able to do their farming of weaker players, however this will add the additional risk to them that they will be attacked by people of the next rank. At least in this way rank holders still get to do what all rank holders do and now have the additional risk of staying stagnent in their rank. They believe that by rank holding they're the top of the food chain and dont have to worry about anyone other than other rank holders. Why not give that risk of staying a rank as an incentive to rank up that way you dont have people spending months (or a few years in several players case) in the same rank. This would certainly encourage people to climb the ranks.

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