The State of Social

[Lsmjudoka]

So it's no secret that social has been getting a bit more hostile lately, with people arguing with each other more than previous months. I'm not naturally against debates or respectful arguments but it's a very blurry line that's hard to enforce reliably without causing regular issues. The increased hostility is undoubtedly in part a result of the game getting more competitive between Shinigami and Hollow, and that competitiveness is a good thing for the game itself.

It's also somewhat impractical for mods to have to step in every time someone says something that might in some way be taken as an insult to another player, rather than legitimate harassment. There's too many situations where it can stifle legitimate banter and it's a little overprotective.

However, WoB is more than just a game, it's also an online community, and there's a lot of people who don't play for the gameplay, but for the conversations. Having constant arguments and verbal abuse in social is very destructive to that. To that end, I've thought of two options:

Option A:
Remove/reduce usage of mixed social. Realistically at this point removing it entirely probably isn't a good idea because we're still a little below the user activity levels to maintain activity in Shinigami and Hollow socials (in part due to people using external services to communicate which is fine, but means there's not as much activity in game socials).

If mixed social wasn't removed entirely, it could instead be changed to not be the default social and be an optional social with looser restrictions on harassment. Saying things like "XXXXXX is weak" would be allowed, but blatant harassment like "You're a f****ing moron you r****d" would not.

Option B:
Make another social dedicated to Trash Talk/race vs. race discussion, and change mixed social to be specifically for friendly discussions. Mixed social would not allow any type of negative comments about any player in the game in any way, but Trash Talk social would allow those who enjoy it to banter against each other or vent frustrations they have so long as they don't go into the lines of racism/homophobic slurs/severe harassment (see above "You're a f****ing moron" comment, things like "go kill yourself", etc).

Ultimately as I'm working on growing the userbase even as we hire more mods it's not as practical to expect mods to step in at every minor situation and micromanage the chat. To this end it becomes necessary to have clearer rules and boundaries.

Which option do you guys feel would be better, or do you feel neither would? Feel free to comment and discuss the issue below.

EDIT: A couple other things I figured I'd mention. Some other ideas to consider with all of these include

-Different name for the "Trash Talk" social to better indicate what it should be used for
-Streamlined blacklist features and putting more user responsibility on blacklisting users who offend them instead of mods having to step in over minor incidents

[Konoha]

I don't think either Option is healthy, and I'll provide my thoughts after a short foreward.

I think the increase in hostility over the past couple of weeks has been due to the lack of moderator presence, which should change considering there are candidates being considered at this time. Once there are more activate moderators, the amount of arguing should cease. However, this is a competitive game, and arguments will happen. People need to figure out to control themselves in a manner that is consistent with the rules. Take a break, grab a drink, or channel your inner salt in League. Moderators should not be expected to micromanage these verbal spats, but its a responsibility that is shared with the community itself.

As for the options presented, I don't agree with either one.

Option A) Removing the mixed social would lead to a lot more inactivity, even though it would most likely reduce the amount of arguments. As an inactive user, its a lot more 'fun' to me to be able to communicate with players from both factions as a Human. If it wasn't for mixed social, I probably would not have returned.

Option B) Allowing a trash talk social would be counterproductive, and would only cause more issues. There would be more verbal arguments, and that would create more headaches for the moderating team.

A better solution would be to create a thread and figure out where these issues seem to stem from. A lot of the arguments I've seen are related to different parts of the battle system that I understand is currently in the process of being updated. Working to find a way to appease the entire community is going to be incredibly difficult, but I think if everyone is able to engage in a healthy discussion and offer their input on what needs to be changed, it should help in the long run.


tl;dr: The amount of arguments seem to have increased due to the decrease in moderation activity (at least from my observation). Once there are more active staff members present during the day, this should decline. It's up to the community to govern themselves accordingly, and know when to remove themselves from a toxic environment.

[Zerocool]

Social has too many forks in it as it is, officer chat is about as dead as hollow chat, and the rp isn't much better.  With what staff you have, this spreads them too thin.

I'm not one that wants stricter punishments, or rules... that isn't really the way to go... It would be nice if Mods could force arguing players to black list each other for a limited time, instead of bannings.

The main arguments have to do with battleholding, borderline battleholding, or someone salty with a loss. Jin and I were basically the only moderators during the day, & part way through the night, one of the reasons why I needed a break. A bigger staff would help out, if they are trained properly.

[Kyuubi]

I love option B, but just because id never go to trash talk social and regular social would once again be amazing sauce <3

[CYRO]

I agree a lot with others are saying.If you remove chat you probably will kill the game. You are getting more mods so that will help out a lot with the Problems. Also I see a lot of arguments with the same people about the same thing, most of this Is pretty good that I see and is already in the Process of being fixed.. But I have seen more then few are pretty much people having a contest on who is bigger then the other when both are Wrong and this is just more of a general people being disrespectful to one of another.


My ideas are as follows to help with the second Problem is.

1.Mods that can Force blacklists.(stole idea a good one)
2.If you are blacklisted have an alert send to u with a warning to stop talking about the other person. If you can see the person Smack talk u while he can ignore what you say will piss people off.
3. when You blacklist someone you should have a reason why you blacklisted them so that it can be filed away and reviewed by modes to see if people are getting to many of a same type. Also for a user to know what is going on as well.

[Lsmjudoka]

Edited main post with a couple of minor notes I forgot to put in initially.

[MikaruKoshigaki]

My thoughts on this are that with the low moderator activity mixed with both races not respecting each other lead to the arguements .. But it's not just those things that contribute to it things like dorm leaving to shini r8s being super inactive have led to nobody from either race keeping the younger ones in line when no mods are on I mean since I've been back I've stepped in on several fights to stop them and the times where they respected me tbey stop .. So all I'm saying is the older players need to step up when the mods aren't there and keep the younger players in line like dorm did .. He was great at it .. Idk just one suggestion on how to make things better .. Removing mixed would be a bad idea and promote people to not make friends with the other race :/ and the extra social for bad mouthing people would just be arguements all the time and let people believe that's ok .. I know I shouldn't be talking since I know i have to be the worst person in social xD but I knew that and I took a break and have come back to try bring respect between the two races which I hope one day I'll achieve.

[orosan]

removing mixed is a terrible idea, it's like removing the only thing left sociable for the players.

do note that hollow social is very dead and the most active place they seek socialising is at mixed even if it is a few arguments against the other race.

adding a new social isn't the best idea as well, we have so many socials and the only active one is mixed, the rp social rarely gets used, officer social is just a sticky note literrally no chatting just adding notes once every 12 hours and is only accessable to officers to begin with.

the only race social that works actively is the shini and sometimes it still isn't enough. you definately cannot remove mixed.

and belive it or not, adding a new social for trashtalking isn't going to actually be effective, if ppl barely go to the other socials what makes you think they will go to the trashtalk, it would not stop ppl from insulting eachother in mixed anyways, it will still happen, we have rules and bans does that stop them? no, at best the trashtalk social will be treated the same was as the rp social, only given attention for 3 seconds every 5 hours then back to mixed.

rito pls think twice.

[Mysterious_Mysteria]

I believe the mixed social, at the very least, shouldn't be removed. It gives both races an opportunity to talk to each other out in the open and get to know each other. Removing the mixed social might possibly increase the likelihood of blind following others without being able to see for themselves how another person (in this case of a different race, Shini or Hollow) truly is with their own eyes. This creates bias.

More importantly, it is my opinion that if the mixed social was removed, people will simply find other ways to harass each other, and there might be an off chance of the negativity being directed within the two races as a still negative alternative. It is to my understanding that if people want to fight, they'll find a way to fight. It's just unfortunate that public places are the go-to place to bicker and make it a negative experience for others. Hopefully, this is where the mods use their good judgement to prevent such occurrences.

Alternatively, creating a trash talking aspect, as mentioned above, might cause more issues. By providing a place where there's basically a green light To trash talk within confines that, because of differing opinions, will probably never be 100% solid and secure, it further encourages negativity.

In addition, if people have hot tempers about whatever issue they're experiencing, I doubt people will take a minute with such fiery tempers to switch chats, thus making a trash talk social an option, but not a solution. Furthermore there's the cases where innocent, friendly chats become negative because of one person's unfortunately inconsiderate comment. If such a case were to occur in the normal chat, it would be rather hard to believe everyone would jump ship for the trash talking chat room. It's when tempers flare and sparks fly that people seem to have the least cohesion. They generally just want to say whatever's on their minds, sometimes with or without caring who else is in the viewing audience.

[Avarice]

I noticed it happens when mods are absent and while there's no way to keep a mod on at all hours of the day, having mods crack down will decrease the amount of fights because a mod will stop it or just the mental aspect of knowing that a mod is there will at the very least keep it out of social. The blacklist option however isn't used nearly enough but when it is, people sometimes get others to relay messages for them which defeats the whole point of having someone blacklisted! Trash talk wouldn't really lessen some of the fights (Such as the ones that start when one is accused of battleholding) because they post it in an open area on purpose. Taking the social away entirely defeats the whole point of this discussion, we're trying to save the community from poison but taking away social defeats the purpose of some people who at this point only log in to talk.
My suggestion? More mods with maybe stricter harassment rules to nip some of these pointless fights in the bud before they get too far.

[Verrier]

Creating thrash channel - not that bad, for sure not harmful thing, let more serious talk to happen on mixed.

Limiting mixed channel - generally bad idea, because it's place where people talk the most.

Suggestion:
Would be really nice if mods could handle things. I can name a few players who are not necessarily friendly but are definitely not attention w****s nor instigators which laugh all the way from people and encourage them into further hate wars. They should be punished too, or even in first line i would say.

[Zerorin]

As others have been saying I don't believe the first two options are the best plan of action: 

Limiting or removing mixed would just damage a major aspect of the social community for the game. 

As for "trash talk chat" it could easily become a head ache for staff as people will take it too far/will be too sensitive.. 

I don't feel that there has been an increase in arguments, but rather there has just been too little staff presence. Most arguments can be stopped by a Mod asking for the players to move on, but without Mods present the argument can reach their peak. Once the new staff members are in place we may see a decrease in arguments again.

[Lazria_nakayami]

Meh, I'm for removing mixed but that's my own personal disliking of the opposite race. Limiting the amount of chats available will bring more people to their racial chat anyway. That or they will resort to a third party chat but who knows.

There isn't a single Shinigami that I'd willingly want to talk to most of the time. (Being a Hollow myself) if players want to talk to each other cross race that badly then there is always the PM system or as I said before, using a third party chat room. In game at least, this would seem cleaner to me.

[Gilgamesh]

My issue is the amount of disrespect that was allowed to occur in a few incidents. The mods have to be flexible and understanding handling certain situations with care. So what happens when it is blatant disrespect towards the mod himself/herself for trying to diffuse a situation? Not wanting and answer or response. Just felt that needed to be put out there.

I’m not a fan of social! Though, I understand the need to have a forum to openly talk. So I am opposed to removing social. I've read some good posts about this and do agree that some sort of Blacklisting attribute needs to be given to the moderators. Also, the point of making a record of why it was done by the mod will be beneficial in the long run if such events happen again.

To me a chat just for trash talk is going to put a burden on the limited staff already in place. Also in the heat of the moment who is going to think “I’m upset, let me switch to trash talk social”. People will find ways regardless of what happens to get their message across.

This is a tough topic and will demand more attention as the game grows further.

[Haruchi]

- Streamlined blacklist features and putting more user responsibility on blacklisting users who offend them instead of mods having to step in over minor incidents

Leaning towards this option myself rather than the voting options. The main cause of recent arguments that I've witnessed has usually been the same people provoking their usual targets, who do not blacklist them and get provoked. There also are certain few users who love drama and provocation, but stay under the "broke-a-rule" limit. Either hammer them relentlessly, or leave them be to avoid backslash. The blacklist is there for a reason but due to latter example it isn't used anywhere near enough.

Forced blacklisting as well as social ignore? Enabling a (senior) staff member to add user A to user B's blacklist and vice versa because they are always butts to each other maybe.

The blacklist option however isn't used nearly enough but when it is, people sometimes get others to relay messages for them which defeats the whole point of having someone blacklisted!

A fair point indeed, one of the things that really grinds my gears in social.

Never been a fan of the trash talk and e-peen comparisons in social, be it related to PVP or not. They disgust me. I wouldn't mind if civilized conversations were enforced rather than "hurr durr im shini i hate hawlows" or "derp herp shini so wek durp" slandering. Yes, they are opposing races in the game, but there's no reason to behave as such when we are all just normal people trying to enjoy our time on WoB and each one of us is just as lame as another.

Once the ongoing picking of new moderators has been done and people have calmed down with voicing their usual protests the situation should improve somewhat.

As a sidenote, removal of posts could be used much more often when stepping in to cease arguments. It proved to be effective before, it ought to be effective now as well.

[Juuzou_Suzuya]

I'm with Chi on the Forced blacklisting part, but it would most likely
A) drop the amount of drama in socials
B) lead the player A to trash talk behind the player B's back (and vise versa) with several witnesses watching and possibly screenshoting it for Player B to see and retaliate till one of them is social banned

[Ichi Kuros]

We need the mixed social because it gradually increases the number of activity and it's the most active social. Trash talk isn't good either because it'll most likely be misused and people get carried away very fast.

[Apollo_021]

the real issue is we cant please everyone all the time, there will always be fight and arguments, deleting mixed will divide hollows and shini even further, also adding a chat for these arguments to take place would be a difficult task, it would be a fine line to walk if this were to happen there would have to be a disclaimer saying entering this chat at your own risk type of thing, and as far as a dead rp chat i roam rp chat often, the issue with rp chat is to many rp at one time and to many rules to go with it it is easier to go to a third party chat like hangouts where we can rp whatever however we want without infringing on the stories of others or the rules set down by the mods

[Grimmjow]

It might seem a little extreme but if you know who the people are who instigate fights in the mixed social can't you just perma ban them from mixed but allow them into their own race chat. This would eliminate the fights in mixed social and it might also eliminate some known trouble makers. Also if said people want to continue fighting they would have to do it in pms. I only say perma ban them because most people who pick fights in mixed only go there to do that. There are certain members of the opposite race that love to try to pick fights in hopes of getting other players mad enough that they insult them which allows them to report the person instigated. This is annoying because the person who just wanted to talk in the social get's in trouble for defending themselves.

[Haruchi]

It might seem a little extreme but if you know who the people are who instigate fights in the mixed social can't you just perma ban them from mixed but allow them into their own race chat. This would eliminate the fights in mixed social and it might also eliminate some known trouble makers. Also if said people want to continue fighting they would have to do it in pms. I only say perma ban them because most people who pick fights in mixed only go there to do that. There are certain members of the opposite race that love to try to pick fights in hopes of getting other players mad enough that they insult them which allows them to report the person instigated. This is annoying because the person who just wanted to talk in the social get's in trouble for defending themselves.

"Loooool the mods banned me for no reason guise, they just love to go on powertrips and abuse their power when Lsm isn't looking. This makes me soooo anti-staff and the mods are so phail too. Imma instigate everyone against them!!! Fail staff! Staff fail! REEEFUND M SHARS ME SON NEED SHARD- /shot"

Yeah, perma'ing from Mixed would be bit drastic. The report feature also isn't used enough by players to archive the provocation.

As for "-- gets in trouble for defending themselves", never retaliate. Be the bigger man, report their messages, add to blacklist, turn social ignore on and swag away.

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